One of my players asks....

[fisherman]

One of my Eastside players asked my opinion on this...I have mine, but thought I could give him how others see it as well.

Btw, I don't know of any other information about the tournament other than this...

But Steve asks:

This was from the tournament this weekend at the Georgia Sports center - 120 players

No-limit Texas hold-em; full table of 10 players ; Tournament style; early in the tournament - ie all chip stacks about equal (for example 9,000)

My question will have to do with how much to raise with premium hands like AA, KK,QQ, AK if the pot is open.

In most tournaments, normally I raise 3-5x the BB with these hands (if the pot is open). My goal is for the rag hands to go away, but not to raise so much that everyone goes away. So after the flop I'm only facing 1 or 2 players at the most. But if everyone folded after my bet, that's ok too.

This weekend I played in a big tournament (120 players) where the table was so loose that 3-5 x the BB didn't mean anything to anyone. It was nothing to have 7 people call my 4 x BB raise that would stay in to see the flop.

So here's my question. Do you:
1) raise much more (say 10-15 x the BB).
What I don't like about this is how much you're committing for one hand. Say the blinds are 100-200 and everyone's stack is about 9k. Your pre-flop bet would be 2000 (if you upped your bet to 10x BB). Say you get one caller. Now the pot is 4600. If you miss the flop and decide to make a continuation bet of half the pot, your stack is now down to 5700.

If the blinds were at 200-400, the situation's even worse. Where 10x the BB would essentially commit 1/2 your stack pre-flop.

2) raise the standard 3-5x BB amount (but knowing you're likely to have 4 or 5 other players see the flop)

3) just call the BB

[jeremiah]

Stack size is crucial, and and the strength of your holdings as well. If you have a huge hand like AA, I'm personally of the mindset to get as much money into the pot as possible pre-flop and on the flop if needed. You can't afford to raise/fold most of the time, and limping with big hands on a loose table is a sure path to disaster. If you're stack is like 20-30 bb's, and your opponents are showing a willingness to call big pre-flop raise, go ahead and raise 5-7-(even 10) BB's and jam the rest on the flop. Or just get it in with pre-flop if there are limpers or pre-flop raisers. If the table is that loose, someone will probably call and you go heads up for all the money with a huge advantage.

Get as many chips as possible in the middle with the best hand.

[pokermedic]

Couple of issues I see before you can truly address the problem.
1) what were the "marginal" hands that were calling? My "rule" of thumb is that for every calling prior, the hand selection goes down a "notch". Therefore, the 6th and 7th players are essentially priced in. But the problem is the first 2-4 players. What kinds of hands do they feel are hands worth getting into a pot with? Have any of these hands been shown down? This gives you insight into the players. Maybe the first few players had hands "worth" seeing a flop and then the last ones were just priced in. Hard to say with the little info shown.

2) Somewhat along the lines of #1, but what kind of players are they? Wild? aggressive? loose and weak?

3) What has been the post flop play like? 1 bet and now you're down to heads up? Checked around?

Now, onto more of what you were wanting. To me, it depends on the player(s) I'm against and the showdown value of my hands. The double edged sword of internet poker has really effected the game. It's amazing to me sometimes how quickly a field thins when the blinds are so low. Is it worth it for you to risk 1/2 your stack when if no one calls you get 0.5% in return? Where is the value in that? So you have AA and it's the 1st or 2nd level. Make a reasonable raise for your position and pot and just play the game. If you loose, ok, well, how much have you invested into that hand? 10-20% of your stack? Ok, well next time you might have KK, you now have more of your stack to be able to play with, and this time the KK will have more value b/c, most likely, the blinds will be higher and more in the pot etc. So why put more at risk early when the value is less?
There is only one hand that wins a tournament, the last one. You have to make it there and also have a bigger stack than your opponent for that to happen.

That's my $0.02

[gigi1218]

If early in the tournament (first few blind levels), 7 people are calling 4 x's bb to see the flop, then I am probably only raising 3 x's bb with my "big hands". If you hit, you are most likely getting paid. If you miss, be prepared to fold (for example if you have AA with 7 callers and the flop is KQ9 and players are raising and re-raising, FOLD). Aggressive tables are good for building your stack, but you also have to fold a lot of big hands post-flop. That's my free advice.

[gigi1218]

Note to self: remember to follow own advice :-) LOL

[Spry]

raise pre-flop the maximum amount that thins the field to 1 other player. Get as much in pre-flop as you can.

if you do end up seeing the flop w/ a bunch of people for whatever reason, follow Karens advice above.

[gigi1218]

Originally Posted by Spry

raise pre-flop the maximum amount that thins the field to 1 other player. Get as much in pre-flop as you can.

if you do end up seeing the flop w/ a bunch of people for whatever reason, follow Karens advice above.

If it's later in tournament (higher blinds), I am definitely raising to whatever it takes to get heads-up. Early in the tournament though is a different story...with a "calling to see the flop no matter what you raise" table.

[JudP]

I would base it on position.

In early position you have the worst risk/reward. I would normally just do a standard raise unless I observed someone going for chips for a raise. Then I would probably just limp since most folks at this table do not really sound like re-raisers, let them raise and re-pop them. In early position there is not much field to herd yet, if you raise too much and get no callers you might as well have just folded.

In later position You have to attempt to get to heads up if there are more than 1 or 2 callers or raisers ahead of you. Even with aces, versus 5 other hands, you have to hit something or you are likely beat. You have to shrink the field with a big enough bet where only a premium hand makes any sense. If there are 5 people in the pot already a raise of the pot + a few BB's or greater is really the only bet that makes any sense.

Tables like these are mines. Play them right and don't get unlucky, they are gold mines, play them wrong, they are land mines. I find myself having to loosen up my range on tables like this and playing more monster draw cards cheap. If you are consistently getting 5 to 1 on your money you are getting the odds to go after them so play them and make sure you get paid off.

[pokermedic]

Originally Posted by Spry

raise pre-flop the maximum amount that thins the field to 1 other player. Get as much in pre-flop as you can.

if you do end up seeing the flop w/ a bunch of people for whatever reason, follow Karens advice above.

Why do this early when there is little value and lot of risk. It's a risk/reward issue, as with every hand. If you're not getting people off a hand, why risk more? I understand the concept of getting your money in when you have the best hand, but you also have to look at the situation. In a ring game, I would go with this strategy all day long, but in a tourney, you're risking your tournament life early and for little value. Let the donkeys knock each other out and play small till the field thins. Then kick it into high gear and go after them when there is value.

[Spry]

I'll play a big pot pre-flop when I hold AA at any point in the tourney. Just sayin.

[pokermedic]

Originally Posted by Spry

I'll play a big pot pre-flop when I hold AA at any point in the tourney. Just sayin.

Even 5-7 handed? Why?

[jeremiah]

Originally Posted by Spry

I'll play a big pot pre-flop when I hold AA at any point in the tourney. Just sayin.

word up

[gigi1218]

Gotta remember, Spry doesn't play much with the APC at the "loose" tables. He probably hasn't had his AA's cracked by Q4 offsuit early in a tournment....just sayin!! LOL

[Spry]

Originally Posted by gigi1218

Gotta remember, Spry doesn't play much with the APC at the "loose" tables. He probably hasn't had his AA's cracked by Q4 offsuit early in a tournment....just sayin!! LOL

I just don't want to mess up my average finish position. Player Profile: Jason Spry

[akargen]

Originally Posted by Spry

I just don't want to mess up my average finish position. Player Profile: Jason Spry

Although I'm tempted, I refuse to click this link Spry.