How much to raise with Aces?

[Art Vandelay]

Sorry if this has been discussed. I did a search but didn't see it specifically.

I know this seems like an elementary thing but I've been getting burned with aces lately. Maybe it's just bad beats or maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Here's an example:
I'm UTG.

Stacks:
[player name deleted] with 5980
BTN with 2515
SB with 7685
BB with 2300
UTG with 3225
UTG+1 with 7640
MP1 with 2505
MP2 with 6335

Blinds: 50/100
Site: Pokerstars
Dealt to UTG:A♥ A♦
Sklansky group 1
Preflop: Hero raises 700 to 800
5 players fold.
SB calls [750]
1 players folded.
Total folds this street: 6
Potsize: 1700
Flop: 4♣ 2♠ 3♥
SB: checks
1 players fold.
Hero bets [2415] [ all-in ]
SB calls [2415]
Potsize: 6530
Turn: J♣
Potsize: 6530
River: 9♠
Results:
SB shows three of a kind, Nines: 9♣ 9♥
Hero shows a pair of Aces: A♥ A♦
SB collected 6610 from pot

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum

As you can see I didn't feel the flop hurt me. In fact a 5 gives me a straight. I'm putting him on JJ or QQ. I push all in after flop, he calls. I'm shocked to see the 99. Of course I already know what's coming on the river.

Bad beat or did I do something wrong? I don't understand his reasoning. Perhaps he felt committed or liked his odds. Or maybe he just wanted to gamble or thought I was bluffing.

I don't like shoving all in with aces preflop. How can that be the best value?

But if you don't raise enough, crap hands will call you.

I realize this may have been discussed ad nauseum on forums but any thoughts would be helpful.

[justthedude]

raise the same as you would any other raising hand. AA gets cracked. Who cares. It wins a lot more than it loses. The wins just aren't as easy to remember.

[Fiendix]

I actually don't like your raise utg. Unless a 7x raise is your standard? It's almost like you're screaming "DON'T CALL ME!"

A standard 3x or (what I like with AA utg) 2.5x raise would have a better chance of someone repopping you or getting paid on them. . .

But I digress.

AA is great hand, the best STARTING hand in hold 'em. Vs ATC you're about 80%. Now, you can never forget that last 20% since every hand in hold 'em CAN be beat.

The above example?

Bad beat. No doubt. Sucks. Lots. But, that's poker. And that's WHY we play it. For the times YOU catch that miracle spade or 9 on the river.

Aces do get cracked. We all swear off playing them from time to time. . . but that's -ev. And you know it as well

[Art Vandelay]

No, 7x is certainly not my standard. I have raised 4-5x before and gotten 4+ callers. I don't want to go against 4 callers with aces. But you're right, I'm sure the amount wasn't correct. This is an area I'm still working on.

Figuring the right amount to get value while still getting good odds (getting other hands to fold) is a balance I'm still trying to improve.

BTW, Wasn't meaning it to sound like a bad beat story. Just looking to fine tune.

Thanks.

[EKUBigSlick]

No hand do you play the same way everytime, if you do??? you are easy

[BlindGuy]

Thats just an absurd raise. make it 3x max...you somehow got action (maybe b/c it looks like you didnt want any? i dunno) I'd be hi-five'n the monitor and doin a dance b/c you somehow each got 60bbs in the middle with the nuts. Almost hope this is a hidden brag post at doing such a feat. Sigh @ the river but just be happy this happened the way it did. In the future, make it 3x and and do whatever you think you need to do to get him to spew as many betting units as possible.

All that being said...wtf.

[Daz_M]

When the chips went in to the pot, you were a massive favorite and the villain caught his 2 outer... that's gonna happen 8% of the time.

When it happens to me I chalk it up as a victory even though I lost the pot.

I think you should determine how much to raise based on the looseness and/or aggressiveness of the players behind you.

If they are overly aggressive you could possibly even call UTG and re-raise anyone who raises behind you but you wouldn't want to make this play at a loose passive table where you will only encourage other limpers.

[DaculaJones]

If you're worried about how to play Aces, maybe next time you should just foldem.
Or you could just go play hearts on PoGo.com.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by DaculaJones

If you're worried about how to play Aces, maybe next time you should just foldem.
Or you could just go play hearts on PoGo.com.

Sorry for trying to improve my game or appeal to others who may be more knowledgeable. Clearly those who are, have identified themselves as such with thought provoking posts. Others take up space. Thanks for clearing up your stance.

This is why people hate poker players.

[DaculaJones]

OK...Let me translate.
A Kooler is a Kooler.
In this hand and in most Koolers everybody's chips are going in the middle after the flop.
No matter how you play either hand, all the chips are ending up in the pot.
Then either the Kooler holds up or the 2 outer suck out or the dreaded 4 draw suck out wins.
Bottom line, nobody is getting away from this hand no matter how either player plays the hand.
The only way you walk away from this hand with chips is to fold.
And if you fold A-A then find another game to play.

[BlindGuy]

Originally Posted by DaculaJones

OK...Let me translate.
A Kooler is a Kooler.
In this hand and in most Koolers everybody's chips are going in the middle after the flop.
No matter how you play either hand, all the chips are ending up in the pot.
Then either the Kooler holds up or the 2 outer suck out or the dreaded 4 draw suck out wins.
Bottom line, nobody is getting away from this hand no matter how either player plays the hand.
The only way you walk away from this hand with chips is to fold.
And if you fold A-A then find another game to play.

lol WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? Please tell me you dont cosider this a situation where we need to be getting our 60bbs in with 99 on the flop or even the turn. I mean there are some leaks in some hands posted here and there in some threads here, but the above quoted statement and approach is midblowingly clueless for anyone who has spent any time or effort in poker. I cant really feel bad for calling you out on it as you have attempted to call out the OP twice in this thread. But i really think you should look into the advice you gave in this thread and consider it if this is something you think.

[DaculaJones]

In this case:
It looks like a single table SnG, but I don't know the stakes.
Based on the hand, probubly low or even "fun" money.
At this level, this is what I see all the time.

If 9-9 is willing to call the pre-flop raise, then 9-9 is willing to play for all his chips after that flop.
Is that too simple to see?
Where did I say I was 9-9 in this case?

Most poker players are not getting away from this type of hand post flop.
It's just a case of stupidity getting lucky.

If a player is smart enough to get away from calling post-flop with 9-9,
then he is also smart enough to not call the pre-flop raise in the 1st place.
Most good players aren't calling pre-flop with 9-9.
But if a player is willing to call pre-flop with 9-9, then he isn't getting away from putting all his chips in the middle after that flop?

[Shafer]

Art,

The beauty of poker is that any given hand can be played all sorts of different ways. Raising to 8x bb is unconventional, but that doesnt mean it was wrong or incorrect. You got somebody to call that raise and that is all you can ask for. You got your money in with a dominating hand and you should feel good about that.

I personally like to raise the same amount preflop regardless of my holding. But that doesnt make me right, that is just my preference.

As a club, we should encourage people to ask these types of questions because they are trying to learn the game at a higher level.

When I first started playing(probably about 8 years ago) I couldnt lay down a weak Ace the first 10 or so sessions. But thankfully, a friend gave me positive constructive criticism after having A3 hitting two pairs to his AK instead of just blowing up on me. Maybe because I had good friends/mentors I am still playing the game today.

-Shafer

[DaculaJones]

To me:
This isn't about what should I have done differently pre-flop.
It's how can I not get all my chips in the pot with the best hand.

Is there anyone out there who is not going to have all their chips in the pot in this hand with A-A?
The caller has you 2 to 1 in chips and you know has made a bad pre-flop call.

Tell me you're folding A-A in this hand instead of getting felted on stupid luck.

Anyone?

[JudP]

Bottom line is the 9's did not play all that well in this hand, 9's are not incredible, but if they were willing to risk half their stack with them(I guess they put you on AK,AQ), I would have liked a shove from them vs a call of a shove.

I am a little curious on why you do not want more callers with your A's though. In early position, I would think that you would want a situation like Fiendix mentions above where you make a small raise (to try and prevent the limpers from all calling) and hope someone else pops it up so you can come over the top. Betting this big in such early position should normally make you miss out on getting properly paid on your Aces(in the times the do hold up). In this situation you got lucky that they fell in love with their 9's and you got all your chips in the middle in a massively dominant position.