Enforcing the rules Part II

[WildOats]

Ben, I believe I said that I set the cards in question to the SIDE of the muck pile in preparation to show them. I do not dig thru the muck pile and I would NEVER award a pot to someone who mucked their hand. That is silly and I will try and remember to slap you for that accusation next time I see you.

But Ben, you talk about people using the rules for their advantage. Lets say you and Joe are in a hand. Joe raises BIG pre-flop. You call. Flop comes, Joe checks or bets, and then you either bet to his check, or re-raise his bet. It's now Joes turn to act. Suppose Joe shows his cards to another player at your table, a player not involved in THAT hand, and then he mucks. Do you not think that the player that saw Joes cards now has a slight advantage over the rest of you at the table? He saw what Joe raised with. He got factual insight into Joes game... he knows something that you, nor anyone else at the table, knows. Whether you personally decide to ask to also see those cards or not, wouldn't you be a bit aggravated that another player has insight that YOU don't? IMO, the table is no longer a level playing field. The only way to level it is for ALL players at that table to see what that one player saw. I do not believe it should affect the hand as it is played, but I do believe it is information that should be shared table wide when the hand in question is complete. If Joe had a problem with me showing his folded hand, I would simply say that if you don't want the TABLE to see your cards, then don't show them to ANYONE. If you don't show your cards to another player, then you never have to worry about this rule...period.

I do not apply this to "railbirds". I think standing on the sidelines and watching someone that you play against, or just a game you respect, is a smart thing. A good way to learn. We all do this when we watch poker on TV. Can I call ESPN and say "Hey, I saw Hellmuths cards" and they will expose them to that table? Uh no. Can I call ESPN and say "Hey, Hellmuth woulda won...get his cards outta the muck" and they would give him the pot? Uh No.

As a dealer, I don't utilize the rules to allow a single player to have an advantage... I utilize them to KEEP any one player from HAVING an advantage over the rest of the table. IMO of the above fictional scenario, the player that saw Joes cards had an advantage that the others did not. It would be my job as a dealer, or a TD, to bring the table back to a level playing field.

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"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm"

[WildOats]

And Joe.... I never heard the story of how you and Linda met. That is the most romantic thing I ever heard!

_________________________
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm"

[shamrox]

Just a quick not Oats.....Say Joe does show his cards then mucks them.....the dealer does not turn the cards over unless asked by another player. Just because the other player gains an advantage does not mean that the rest of the table deserves that advantage Implicitly. They have to ask for it!

"An idiot repeats his mistakes. A smart man learns from his mistakes. But a genius learns from the mistakes of others."

[WildOats]

Exactly. Thats why I said I set the cards in question to the side of the muck pile in PREPARATION to show.

_________________________
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm"

[Ben]

OATS, my dear. I have not accused you of anything other than bastardizing the rule. Now in your example, the ONLY information a person could gain from JOE showing HIS cards is about JOE. You are right, JOE should not have exposed his cards to the other player. Oooops, it happened. Now, to take his error one step further by showing the rest of the table, gives the table the advantage. They should NOT be shown nor would they be shown in any legitimate casino.

As for your "pile on the side" arrangement. Let me give you a scenario. Multi-way pot, AK2 on the board with two hearts. Turn brings a 3. Checks all around. River brings a 2 of hearts. First to act checks with Q10 of hearts, a flush. All three people following him bet, raise and re-raise. He picks his cards up indiscrimately where his neighbor (not in the hand) can see his cards whether he wants to or not. Says, I missed my straight and tries to muck his hand. You, being the aggressive psycho dealer pull his cards to the side in "preparation" of exposing his cards. The action is settled and two pair is the best hand shown down. You flip over First To Act's cards and expose the nut winning flush. Because you refused his cards from the muck and showed his hand down, he is ENTITLED to win the pot. This is an abuse of the SOSA rule and should not be done. Bottom line, once a hand is mucked, it should never again be seen no matter how righteous you feel or what justice you decide to force on the table.

[joelarbear]

Taken directly from Robert's Rules of Poker (verbatim)

6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.

The Joelarbear

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Roll Tide!

[Ben]

Which Roberts Rules are you quoting from? Is this Bob Ciaffone's?

[joelarbear]

Yes.

The Joelarbear

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Roll Tide!

[Ben]

Alright JOE. I need you to help me out here. I'm pouring through RRofP and it is just not set up as 1, 2, 3. What chapter? What page? Help me out here.

[WildOats]

"agressive pscyho dealer"!??!?!!? Ben, honey, sweetie, darlin.... don't even go there!


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"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm"

[Ben]

Ahahaha. My point has been proved?

[plinder01]

quote:Originally posted by Ben
[br]Alright JOE. I need you to help me out here. I'm pouring through RRofP and it is just not set up as 1, 2, 3. What chapter? What page? Help me out here.

Joe, I think Ben is trying to say, you are full sh*t. You quote the rule verbatim and he still wants to see it for himself.
Are you gonna put up with that?




Sometimes it pays to be a Poker B*tch

[WildOats]

No, not at all. All you really did was prove you can piss me off.

_________________________
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm"

[Ben]

Nah, don't let me do that. It's open debate. I love all my psycho dealers. Especially when they are as hot as you.

[plinder01]

This happened on Wednesday night. (Of course, all the rules come into play on Wednesday's at The Office.)

Player A goes all in, Player B calls, along with 2 other players. This leaves 4 players, with 3 players still betting. Player A shows Player B his cards. I immediately took his cards and showed them to the rest of the table.

I agree with Jen's long version of how she handles a table. I do the same thing. I keep the cards to the side, if no one asks to see them when the hand is over I don't show. It's up to the players to ask.