Asking to see other player's hands at showdown

[lazyhippie]

I would like to know what the APC ruling is for asking to see other player’s hands at showdown.

The scenario for this is as follows:

Players A, B, and C see the flop.
Player A folds before the river while B and C go all in
At showdown B shows first and C folds and doesn’t show.

Can Player A request that Player C show their hand?

I looked up Robert’s Rules Version 11 and found the following two paragraphs pertaining to this.

SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES > THE SHOWDOWN

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

8. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all-in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot. However, the other players do not lose the right to request the hand be shown if he does so.

Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

[jeremiah]

I think rule 8 from above is a pretty good rule to go by 99% of the time. Here's onething I see a good bit that sometimes bothers me.

Player A makes an all-in bet at the river, Player B calls with the nuts or very close to it and waits for A to show down because B called the bet. Technically, this may be the exact language of the rule, but if you are holding what is little to no doubt is the winning hand, call and show down immediately. If there is legitimate doubt, ask to see the bettors hand. The problem I think a lot of people have here is dinstinguishing between the "rule" and etiquette.

I firmly believe if you have a high percentage winning hand at showdown, you should in good taste, showdown as quickly as possible to eliminate any thoughts of slowrolling the nuts or close enough to the nuts. I think it is in good taste to allow an opponent to muck a sure losing hand if they so chose after being called. If you call a big bet on the river, knowing that you have a winner or have caught the other guy bluffing, it's kind of like rubbing salt in the wound when you catch them in a bluff. They know, you have caught them or have the nuts, you know the same thing, so skip all the formality show your winner, allow them to muck a loser and continue with the game.

Like I said though, some people may not know the difference. You don't always have to have the stone cold nuts to slowroll someone. And that friend is extremely poor etiqutte.

[Jimmy]

In a tournament, hands MUST be shown immediately upon completion of action when a player is all in. If a player moves in preflop, and one person calls, both hands must be tabled before the flop is dealt. The same applies if it happens at the turn or river.
In a live (cash) game, any player at the table may ask to see a called hand at showdown. The hand is tapped on the muck to "kill" it and turned over. Any player abusing this right may have it revoked at floor person's discretion.
In a tournament, any player may ask to see only the WINNING hand at showdown, i.e. the hand that ultimately won the chips. Only if a player specifically states that he suspects collusion and can provide some kind of explanation or evidence will a non-winning called hand be tabled at showdown when the player intends to muck it.

[BigSlickJedi]

Thanks for the explanation of the rule for tournaments, Jimmy. I will let my dealers know this as they sometimes call me over to enforce the ruling and make a player show their hand even if they lost.

Clint

[smarshall62]

Regarding tournaments, Jimmy is correct. For the record, the specific rule is covered in Section 15, rule #34

34. All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete.

[DaculaJones]

OK...That's pretty black and white when a player is all-in.

But what about a showdown when nobody is all-in?
It's like, slow roll heaven, as experienced players wait for inexperienced player to show 1st.
And then when the bettor finds out they lost to the caller, they muck.
Then the caller sez, "I paid to see your cards by calling"
And then the mucker sez, "They're already in the muck, their dead."

What about that, huh?

[gulftriton]

In a live (cash) game, any player at the table may ask to see a called hand at showdown. The hand is tapped on the muck to "kill" it and turned over.

This is straight out of The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook. General Information: Page 25 Section 32.

[gulftriton]

In a live (cash) game, any player at the table may ask to see a called hand at showdown. The hand is tapped on the muck to "kill" it and turned over.

</P>
This is straight out of The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook.
General Information: Page 25 Section 32.

This includes tournament play too. Like Jimmy says, an envolved monster hand may lead to this if warranted. A player abusing the privilage and slowing the table down maybe warned...... Dealers run the table. If the situation gets into a ruckus, call the floor (TD) and let the TD decide. Remember, this too slows the amount of hands players will see at the table.

I dont know about you, I prefer to see as many hands per blind level that a dealer can give me.
LOL, we have players that seem to have to ponder every hand and really slow it down.

Situation: 4 players in a flop. The last to act has the advantage of seeing everything before making a decision. Say, the first to act bets. The last to act should size up all the information given him by the next 2 players. When the action gets to player 4 (or last to act) they should immediately know their play. Instead, the have to take their (ponder) time too. Drives me nuts as a dealer. Just sayin.

[Jimmy]

As far as showdown order, if there is action on the river, the last player to initiate action, i.e. bet or raise, has to show first. If there is no river action, the player in the worst position (first left of the button) must show first. Players who know they have a winner are of course encouraged to show first. The reason for the no river action thing is that dealers are not obligated to remember action on previous betting rounds. For example, if on the flop a player asks who raised preflop, the dealer cannot answer. One player to a hand.
If a player fires his hand into the muck before the other player has the chance to ask to see the hand, that's too bad. Remember that as a dealer, it is your job to protect the integrity of the game. This is why the dealer's pitch hand rests on top of the muck, to protect it from cards entering it before they have permission.

[DaculaJones]

You mean to tell me that a mucked hand that is inside the betting line is still not considered a mucked hand? That only cards in the muck pile are considered mucked? And the dealer can control whether a hand is mucked or not by protecting the muck pile?
I don't have a problem with that. I just want it to be clear and in the rules.
Because if this is in fact true, then the grey line of muck has made a shift.

[Jimmy]

This depends on the room and the situation. In some rooms, the dealer's hand is an extension of the muck. The best thing a dealer can do is to bring all hands tossed forward into the muck as quickly as possible. If a hand is clearly identifiable beyond a shadow of a doubt, it will be retrieved in many situations. As a floor, if I had one messagt to dealers it would be this: When in doubt, muck the damn hand. If the hand was meant to be live it would be either protected or tabled.
This is why, as a player, you should never release your hand at the end until the dealer has pushed you the pot. When all in, with no chips to cover your cards, make sure to still protect your hand.

[jbozzzz]

And that is why Jimmy is the Man !!

[dawggone66]

And my humble opinion......
The history of asking to see a hand (and I'm talking cash games) came about to question the possibility of collusion between two (or more) players.
Anyone at a cash table has the right to ask to see the hand, HOWEVER, it's been my experience nowadays, that those who are asshole enough to ask, certainly aren't worried about collusion. They just want to know what the losing hand was, and gain what information they can from it. It happens from time to time down here.
It is your right, but personally, I find it to be in bad taste. If you suspect collusion, sure, go ahead. If not, show a little class.

[jeremiah]

Originally Posted by dawggone66

And my humble opinion......
The history of asking to see a hand (and I'm talking cash games) came about to question the possibility of collusion between two (or more) players.
Anyone at a cash table has the right to ask to see the hand, HOWEVER, it's been my experience nowadays, that those who are asshole enough to ask, certainly aren't worried about collusion. They just want to know what the losing hand was, and gain what information they can from it. It happens from time to time down here.
It is your right, but personally, I find it to be in bad taste. If you suspect collusion, sure, go ahead. If not, show a little class.

I second this sir. Same thing I was saying before. If you have a winner, and you know for certain you have a winner, show down and move on. I find it in really bad taste for a non-involved player to ask to see a hand at showdown.

[Jimmy]

As a player first and a floor supervisor second, I would prefer that each time a hand is asked to be shown, the floor be called over. The floor then asks, "Why do you want to see this hand?" If the player says anything but, "I suspect collusion," the hand is mucked and we move on. Eventually, players wont ask to see hands anymore. Even assholes usually have more class than to actually accuse someone of collusion.