Asking to see other player's hands at showdown

[BlindGuy]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

As a player first and a floor supervisor second, I would prefer that each time a hand is asked to be shown, the floor be called over. The floor then asks, "Why do you want to see this hand?" If the player says anything but, "I suspect collusion," the hand is mucked and we move on. Eventually, players wont ask to see hands anymore. Even assholes usually have more class than to actually accuse someone of collusion.

If I play today please deal me better cards.

k, thx

[smarshall62]

I agree that in most cases a player shouldn't ask to see a player's hand due to poor etiquette, but I have also played in a few cash games where I believe some other players were also showing poor etiquette and abusing things by being the last to take action, but waiting for the opposing player to show their hand first and then muck when they see they lost. If the opposing player is not as experienced and forgets to wait for the abuser to show his cards first, then he will consistently be taken advantage of. If he paid to see the cards, he should see them regardless. Haven't done it yet, but I have been very close several times to asking to see a player's cards just for this reason.

[smarshall62]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

As far as showdown order, if there is action on the river, the last player to initiate action, i.e. bet or raise, has to show first. If there is no river action, the player in the worst position (first left of the button) must show first.

Assuming no action on the river, does this showdown order apply to just tournaments, or is this also applicable for cash games? Just curious. In Tunica now and definitely seen this in the tournaments. I guess I will have to ask today how this works in the cash game.

[JudP]

Originally Posted by jeremiah

I think rule 8 from above is a pretty good rule to go by 99% of the time. Here's onething I see a good bit that sometimes bothers me.

Player A makes an all-in bet at the river, Player B calls with the nuts or very close to it and waits for A to show down because B called the bet. Technically, this may be the exact language of the rule, but if you are holding what is little to no doubt is the winning hand, call and show down immediately. If there is legitimate doubt, ask to see the bettors hand. The problem I think a lot of people have here is dinstinguishing between the "rule" and etiquette.

I firmly believe if you have a high percentage winning hand at showdown, you should in good taste, showdown as quickly as possible to eliminate any thoughts of slowrolling the nuts or close enough to the nuts. I think it is in good taste to allow an opponent to muck a sure losing hand if they so chose after being called. If you call a big bet on the river, knowing that you have a winner or have caught the other guy bluffing, it's kind of like rubbing salt in the wound when you catch them in a bluff. They know, you have caught them or have the nuts, you know the same thing, so skip all the formality show your winner, allow them to muck a loser and continue with the game.

Like I said though, some people may not know the difference. You don't always have to have the stone cold nuts to slowroll someone. And that friend is extremely poor etiqutte.

Grey area here for me. I understand and agree slow rolling is poor ettiquette, but it is situational I believe. I never really ask to see mucked cards, but then again I do not show most of the time when they insta-muck and the pot is awarded to me. If I call a bet on the river I will ask to see their hand before showing mine if the action was unusual or they got aggressive on the river after calling the whole way down even if I likely have the best of it.

Example from a few weeks back:
Qs Qh and position aggressor to the river with every bet getting called (4BB pre-flop half pot after flop, half pot on turn, and then early position pops a pot sized bet on the river putting me all in)

As 9s 10s Qd 5s

Only possibly behind X Ks, so the call is a no brainer but I want to see their cards before I show mine and have them toss theirs in the middle. If they have the Ks they likely show right away and send me home, but if they hold them, I show and they toss them in, I learn very little to help improve my read.

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by smarshall62

Assuming no action on the river, does this showdown order apply to just tournaments, or is this also applicable for cash games? Just curious. In Tunica now and definitely seen this in the tournaments. I guess I will have to ask today how this works in the cash game.

This applies to all games.

[The Bowler]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

This is why, as a player, you should never release your hand at the end until the dealer has pushed you the pot.

That is what I do, even at APC events. I also tell players other players to do this.

Duba

[ryand]

Originally Posted by smarshall62

Haven't done it yet, but I have been very close several times to asking to see a player's cards just for this reason.

You have to be ultra-careful with this. Make absolutely certain the dealer has killed the hand before it is exposed. The dealer should take the hand face down and tap it on the stump of the deck to indicate visually "this is a dead hand" before exposing it.

If a player's cards are pushed forward, but have not been mucked (and that's a judgment call you do not want to be in the middle of) and then they are subsequently exposed, that is a potentially live hand. If the player has misread his hand and produces a winner, he or she will be awarded the pot that was supposed to have gone to the novice who didn't ask to see the hand.

For the same reason, if you are not in the hand at the showdown, don't tell people "show your cards". If they made a mis-read, let that error be on them, not on you. You have no equity. If you think someone is being abused, pull them aside and give them a quick 30 second review on their rights on the river. But if you get involved you risk putting yourself in a really ugly situation that will be all of your own making.

RyanD

[wildcatvixen]

If I pay for the showdown, the other person better show their cards. It's the dealers place to make sure the hand is not THROWN into the muck. They run the table and should be mindful that some bitch like me would want to see them.

[MrsGooch]

Tiff Where have u been????????????????? miss ya!!!!!!!!!!

[wildcatvixen]

Long story not appropriate for the forum. Miss you too.

[Thessalonikios]

Etiquette vs Rules in a nutshell:

YouTube - Hellmuth vs Bellande: A Lesson on Poker Etiquette

[jeremiah]

Originally Posted by Thessalonikios

Etiquette vs Rules in a nutshell:

YouTube - Hellmuth vs Bellande: A Lesson on Poker Etiquette

That video is a prime example of exactly what I've been saying. If you catch a guy on a bluff on the river, and he says "good call" or whatever close to that nature, have a little class, a little ettiquette. Let the guy toss the hand. That's what opens the door to slow rolling big hands.